Vandana Aparanti (Bathari / Gaikwad)

MP: We're talking about your background as one from a Caste-Oppressed background. And we've talked about the ways in which in India you felt oppressed...

VA: Yeah.

MP: In sometimes quite subtle ways, and kind of being...

VA: Yeah.

MP: Shunned or not welcomed in spaces. Do you feel that any sense of oppression relating to your caste here in the UK?

VA: Till now I have not felt, but at...on one occasion I have felt it, you know, that people...like some people, you know, were speaking behind me that she's a...you know, belonging to this community, and how you do not know how much reservation they get and where do they go after that and, you know? So, when you hear that somebody has spoken about you behind, then that upsets you. But then you can't stop people from saying. But this happens only when there is all South Asians together. And when we have everyone from other communities there, this topic never comes up. So these things do happen, which I believe that they happen. The reason is it has not happened with me straightforward, but I heard that somebody had spoken about me in this way. But then whatever is happening in the UK, which we see in the advertisements and we see the different gurdwaras of different castes, temples of different castes. So what does it show? That it still exists, and it exists in the UK.

MP: And do you think it exists amongst particular sectors of the South Asian community? Whether that's amongst certain caste groups, whether it's amongst certain religious groups. Because we know obviously this is a Hindu system, but actually, you know, there might be other South Asian groups that...

VA: Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. And it's not only India. It's not only the problem of India. It's the problem of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal. They all believe in the system because they...we all were one together. Now we are separated. So even in the Muslim community, I have seen that caste system does exist. The Syeds and the Syednas feel that they are from the higher caste or community, but Islam never says that people are from different...have to be differentiated. Islam says that people are one, everyone is...you know? So...and even in the Sikh community, I have seen it. Because Sikh gurdwaras are divided according to the caste. Because they have a different gurdwara run by different...by people who are Sikh, but belong to a certain caste. Another gurdwara which is run by a different caste, which is an Oppressed Caste. Why should you have a trust which is belonging to a certain caste? Why should you have a trust? It's a place of God, so you should have a mixture of everyone.

MP: And what about generational, do you...have you seen any difference with generations in the UK and their...and the way they interact with caste?

VA: Yes, I have seen. I have close friends who are not very...you know, are not accepted by the other communities. Other communities in the sense the people from the same community, sorry, but belonging to the dominant caste. They are not accepted. They are not called for any functions, which I have seen first-hand.

MP: So you mean UK South Asians that are of...

VA: They discriminate amongst each other.

MP: And so, I suppose what I'm asking is, are there...can you see any differences based on the different generations or maybe different classes, or even gender? I mean, you know, does it make a difference if you're a woman and from a Caste-Oppressed background, as opposed to a man?

VA: Yeah. That...first I'll ask...answer your question about generations. Because the previous generation people I feel were more closed, are more closed at the moment also I am seeing. But the younger generation is open, but sometimes they take a bit of time to come out of this. Because they understand what is the caste system, but they are taught from home that this...you belong to this caste, and the neighbour belongs to the Oppressed Caste. You don’t have to be so close to them. But then I am seeing a difference, positive difference that, you know, when these same youngsters, when they grow up and they read about the caste system, they are asking questions, they are open to discussion. So there are some marriages which are happening between two different castes, from...between the dominant and the Oppressed Caste. So, this generational difference is there, though the parents are opposing, children are still...children are getting married. And the other question was about as a woman and a man. Yes, as a woman belonging to the Oppressed Caste community, I do feel that I am more vulnerable to...you know, to the...you know, to the looks of men. Because the iden...the woman's body is looked at as an object, you know, in the mind of a man if he is from the South Asian community. So he looks at a woman who is the...who is an Oppressed Caste woman that she is something which he can, you know, lure her, or he can pass some slurs, or he can pass some comments, and she won't take it otherwise. So that mentality if they have...if they still...if it still exists, so I can see that in the eyes when you mix with...you know, when it's a mixed community, men and women together, so that respect is not there.

MP: You've briefly mentioned there is no legal recourse at the moment. And would I be correct in saying that you're working and protesting to change that?

VA: Yeah. This is the Equality Act of 2010, where our demand was to have caste as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. But there was a consultation which happened, and in that consultation...they had two consultations. So, in the first consultation it was, you know, proved that there are cases which are happening. But in the second consultation, it didn't come out that way because they had...they gave a lit...small period of time the government, and secondly, the second consultation when it was not required. When the first consultation was existing, why would they have a second consultation? But this was the time during 2016, 2015 to 2017. And now what has happened is, because there was a case in the country about the Chandhok versus Tirkey. This was a case. So this was...according to the case law, even now anyone goes to the court, but case laws will be used because caste is not...but...so caste comes under race, that is what they have said, in...so, unless the government repeals this decision, till then it will not come out as...caste will not come as a protected characteristic in the legal framework, which we are still fighting for.

MP: And how are you fighting for it? What are you doing?

VA: Yeah, we are contacting the MPs. We have an all-party parliamentary group for caste. So, the government's...because we had...Labour government has just come. We had the Conservative before that. And our struggle has started since 2006 or ’07. So we are still...we are protesting on...we are coming to the streets, giving our not...their notification to the MPs. We have MPs on our side. So all these things take time. We have also given our, you know, letter to the United Nations. All places we are going to. But we got some success but then it was...again, because we were asked to take another consultation, they asked us to take, which we couldn't fulfil. And then now it is in the basket. It just needs to be repealed. So if the government wishes, they can repeal it. But if they want to repeal, what will happen to the Hindu community? Because Hindu community will be against it. So they don't want to disturb them, because they are the people who are the business community.

MP: And...

VA: So, government always has these type of things going on. So, you know, they want to protect the business community, so I don't know whether they'll be interested in doing this.

MP: And was there opposition when you were consulting on it last time around?

VA: Yeah, there was a lot of opposition. There were some MPs who were not belonging to the South Asian background, but they were supporting the dominant caste. And they said that this does not exist in the UK. So, so much of oppo...it's not only opposition from the dominant caste of South Asia, it was opposition even from the MPs who don't belong to the community at all, they have nothing to do, but then because they are MPs of that area where the maximum population is from the dominant caste.

VA: You pick up the language when you come to a different country, of course, but it takes time. And it takes time for somebody to go and...go on a stage and speak about your...where...before that, I had not spoken so much on stage. So for me to stand there and speak. And I also want to thank Million Women Rise. They are the ones who...you know, who gave me the chance to speak about this issue, this subject on the...on stage.

MP: Is this in Trafalgar Square?

VA: Yeah.

MP: Please tell me about Trafalgar Square and this organization, who they are.

VA: This is organization which is founded by Sabrina. And it is all women come together. And there are all women, white, Black, and all South Asian, all countries' women are there. It's a big march which they organize every year on International Women's Day, which starts off...you know, I think it is more than one hour of march right from Oxford Street and then Regent Street, and then it comes to Trafalgar Square. It ends there. But before it ends, there are speeches on Trafalgar Square, on the stage there. They had...they set up a stage there. And then there are different speeches, sometimes songs, sometimes poetry. So it's only for women. All women come in. So it's nice. And then you feel empowered, you feel you're doing...you know, that you...there are so many people there with you. And there, when I asked them whether I can speak about caste, because it...I have never heard anyone talking about this issue in this country. And there are so many rapes happening in India, and we need to raise awareness about it. So then they gave me a chance, and I spoke. And then now I'm in the core group of Million Women Rise. So that is something very good which I wanted to share.

MP: And so which year did you speak at Trafalgar Square?

VA: I think it was 2020 probably. 2020, yeah.

MP: And what did it feel like standing up there?

VA: Oh wow, it was wonderful. I really liked it so much. I don't know. I think I have not sent you the link for that. If I send you, you'll get to hear that. It's...I felt really very powerful. I felt very emotional. And I just felt, you know, that I could say this on this stage in front of the world, because London is the window of the world. If you shout from here, the whole world listens. So that shout was needed. And I said that. Because...and for me, the slogan of 'Jai Bhim' is very important. 'Jai Bhim' is hail to Dr Ambedkar. Which I...at the end of my speech, I said, 'We greet each other also that way, we say Jai Bhim.' We don't say hello, or we don't...you know, every community has their way of greeting each other. But we as Ambedkarites, we always say 'Jai Bhim' to each other. And that's what I said at the end of my speech, and I was so proud.

• Asian Women's Resource Centre
• Southall Black Sisters

Entry credit

Laura Owen