Rozina Visram (Rosie)

MP: What do you think...or could you define maybe a...your greatest professional achievement? Because you have done so many different things. You know, you've talked about how you think of yourself as a teacher, but not as a writer and maybe not as a researcher, but you've got your honorary doctorate, you've got these amazing books. We've covered lots of things. Is there maybe one or two things that you can pinpoint as you think, yeah, those are amazing?

RV: I mean, I would like to think that I have attempted to, whether I've succeeded or not is not for me to judge, I have attempted to change the way people see British history, and this whole idea of British history being just white and other people just having come after 1950 living in ghettos. Well, I want to show that this has not been the case, that there has been an interaction going back 400 years. And that interaction has changed both. The British have changed certain cultural, political things in Britain. And in that, we too have changed as well, and no longer as Indian or whatever. So, it’s the kind of intercultural relationships that I would like to think I have attempted for people to think differently. But whether I have succeeded or not, it's not for me to judge. When I'm dead and gone, people may be able to judge that.

RV: I think in a way, I must thank, you know, London Education Authority, or ILEA, who was part of the education authorities. In those...at that time, the whole idea was to try and combat racism, sexism and all that. And so they were offering fellowship to try and diversify your curriculum in the subject you were teaching. And since I was doing history, I could talk about Asians and Blacks in Britain. And I applied for a fellowship, and I was given that, and this is how did I begin writing. And the idea was to produce a pack of school materials, photographs, documents and a text, which could be used in schools. But then of course by then, Mrs Thatcher had got into power.

MP: So what year was this around?

RV: Around about 1990s. And of course, ILEA was abolished. And I was asked to use the material that I had produced to go to the national publisher. And I went to about five national publishers, two of whom, Longmans and Heinemann, has produced schoolbooks on Blacks, African Caribbean history but not Asian. And I was told there was no market for another Black history. Not...forgetting that experiences. Although in a way, historically, there may have been sort of similarities, but experiences of the communities were different. But obviously they didn't want to know anything about Asians. And I remember Peter Fryer saying to me, 'Why don't you go to Pluto Press? They may be interested in this.' They were, because they wanted it to be a companion volume to Staying Power, Peter Fryer's book on African Caribbean. But of course, I had school material, and they didn't do schoolbooks. Would I try and do a book for the publisher...the public? And obviously when you research, you collect more material than you are going to use for a schoolbook. So it was okay, I agreed. And this is how Ayahs, Lascars and Princes was born. And really it began as a schoolbook, and then became for a general public. And this is how...I mean, I never wanted to write. I was a teacher, and all I wanted to do was be a good teacher, whatever that means. And this is how I got into writing. And I became a pioneer about Asians in Britain from 1600. Most people by then, universities particularly, were writing about the post-1950s community. Nobody had done the pre-1950s community. And in fact, people didn't know that there had been an Asian community in Britain pre-1950s. The whole idea was people knew that Asians had come to Britain 1950s onwards. And this is how, of course. And in some ways, even now not very many people seem to be interested in the pre-1950s Asian community in Britain. It's now only recently that I think universities do involve courses on pre-1950, and my book has started being used much more than previously. After all, the book was published ages ago.

MP: And so your teaching life in London, we talked a little bit about the school in Greenwich. You suggested that the students there were very different from the students in Zanzibar, it was mainly white...

RV: In Zanzibar, the students were mainly Arabs, Africans, Indians. In Britain, because of the teaching was in Greenwich, most of the classes that I taught were white. Hardly a handful of Black and Asian students in the Greenwich school where I taught in Eltham.

MP: And so what was it like delivering the sort of content that you were enthusiastic about delivering?

RV: To begin with, it was a bit strange. And I think there were some students who, I wouldn't use the word resent but I can't think of another word at the moment, didn't sort of feel that I was good enough. But then obviously, you know, soon after, as I say, it was just wonderful. And then suddenly to be asked to take over running the department. And I still have students who come and hug me and sort of say, you know, how much they enjoy being taught by me. So, no, it was a good school.

MP: And tell me what it was like to run the history department when, I think, your colleague went off on maternity leave, is that right?

RV: Yes. And in a way, it was just taking things over, and doing things the way that she had been doing. And when I really, properly became a head of department, then I could do things my way.

MP: And so when was that, and where was that?

RV: I mean, she was away for two years, I think. Then she came back. And then I became head of department again. Applied for it, because I was encouraged to apply for it. Didn't get it, because I remember the governing body, mainly elderly men, they didn't sort of feel…was asked some very awkward questions. And so I didn't get it. It was given to a man from Manchester University. And the next day, because the head had this habit of writing up on the notice board who was appointed, and he just had written, nobody was appointed for history last night. And of course, I had told the head of history that chap from Manchester was appointed. So she ran to see the head and to tell him that Rozina says, you know, that so and so was appointed. And he just looked at her and said, 'No, nobody was appointed'. Apparently much, much, much later I learned that the next morning, early in the morning he'd rung up this man...

MP: The headmaster had rung? Okay.

RV: This man to say...not the…I'm not quoting his words, but something similar, to say that you think you're coming to my school, but you're not.

MP: So this was the appointment in Manchester? Okay.

RV: And he put a note through my pigeonhole to say if I would go and see him. And he said to me, 'I want you to take over'. So I remember looking at him and saying, 'The governing body didn't think I could run the department, so what makes you think now that I could do it?' So, he...I remember him saying to me, 'You are the deputy head, so you either take over as acting and be paid for it, or you run it as a deputy, and you don't get paid for it. So go away and think about it, and let me know tomorrow what you want to do.' So obviously, you know, I began acting again. And then it was re-advertised and I was asked to reapply. And I did, and of course I got the job then. So, it's just very odd. And this was a time when there was a lot of racism and sexism. But it looks like the head of the school, Mr Dawson, knew who he wanted and why he wanted me to be the head, because he knew that when I had been acting previously as a non-deputy or whatever, I'd run the department well. Plus, I had a huge experience from East Africa, having taught for nearly five years and run departments, redesigned curriculums and things and all that.

MP: And so what was the school's name? The name of the school that you...

RV: Eltham Green.

MP: Eltham Green.

Ayahs, Lascars and Princes: Indians in Britain, 1700–1947 (London: Pluto Press, 1986)

Indians in Britain (London: Batsford, 1987)

Women in India and Pakistan: The Struggle for Independence from British Rule, Women in History (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1992)

The History of the Asian Community in Britain (Hove: Wayland, 1995)

Asians in Britain: 400 Years of History (London: Pluto Press, 2002)

The History of the Asian Community in Britain, revised and updated edn (London: Hodder Wayland Children, 2005)

The History of the Asian Community in Britain, new edn (London: Hachette Children's Group, 2021)

Entry credit

Zareena Pundole