Rafait O’Rourke

MP: So, as they were growing up in a town, a place that you describe as not being that diverse, how did you negotiate your difference against living in a society where there was a difference of binaries? So, you know, you have Protestants/Catholics and you're living within that society that has a very binary difference, but yours sits at...outside of that. How do you negotiate life?

RR: Well...

MP: [Inaudible 0:28].

RR: Yeah. Well, luckily for us, being...the school choices were in some ways...I mean, I was never fully aware of the educational system here as being divided until I started looking at it. But it kind of was...I mean, I belonged to neither, my children belonged to neither, and my husband was indifferent. But he was very adamant that they went to a mixed school, i.e., boys and girls, because he went to a boys-only school, and he went to a boarding school. But...and also at that time when we moved, they were setting up integrated schools, which made that decision easy. So they were trying to move away from that sort of divisive Catholic schools or Protestant schools. And I didn't want them to go to an either/or. So that decision was actually quite easy. And if there was going to be any sort of diversity or sense of belonging, it was always going to be in the integrated system. So that's kind of going against the grain of the traditions of my husband's family, but that kind of didn't really bother me because we were making a choice for ourselves. And as for me personally, I felt it was easy, because I didn't belong to either side. And sitting outside it, that was never difficult for me because I...you know, your view is irrelevant. And it is irrelevant because you're not...because it doesn't matter, your opinion on either side doesn't matter. I mean, I don't hold strong views either way. I think that the whole way that Northern Ireland became the state that it is, and the whole civil rights movement and the conflict and the Troubles is just a terrible period in history, you know, that could have been avoided. It's just a very quick synopsis. But I can see how it evolved in the way that it did. But to sit outside of that was completely comfortable. And to be able to ask questions legitimately without knowing the...without identifying with either side. So, I mean, I was on the board of governors for the school for a while, so that was very interesting because you get very strong opinions on either side. And it was really insightful to be there and to hear those strong opinions, and then try and reach middle ground. I mean, people were working towards a commonality, which was good, but those opinions really mattered, and they're rooted in their own histories and...so being from neither side was great. You know, it was...it didn't matter. Nobody really cared, really, you know? And I think because I was married to a Catholic person within the Catholic community, I was considered Catholic, you know? And because I'm...I speak with an English accent, you know, the Protestant community, who are very affiliated with the British tradition, were, well, you're...you sound British, that's great. So it was...you know, it never really felt like an issue for me.

MP: And so you've talked about experiences of racism as a child. And we're talking now about the contemporary period and your experiences. Do you have any experiences that you want to share of racism more recently?

RR: Well, I think racism more recently is...I...my grandson doesn't look like me, he's quite white-looking. He doesn't look like me. And I was out walking with him and somebody approached me, and asked me if he was...he's not yours, where did you get him from? And that was so bruising. I was totally stunned. I...you know, I felt...you know when you're in a situation where you just can't possibly believe that that is happening, that you do nothing? I mean, I've thought so much about what I should have done, but I mean, I just carried on walking. I mean, that is just...that did not happen with my own children. But yet here in Northern Ireland, that happened to me with my grandson. And it's so awful that when I told my husband, he was so shocked, but he's kind of laughed because it was so...but not...it's not funny in a funny way. And I just sort of think, what is the matter with people? Like, what gives you the right to think that it is okay to make comment on that?

MP: And so what do you think moved that person to make such a comment?

RR: I mean, I could dismiss it immediately as that person is...you know, is a complete and utter idiot, you know, but that's not helpful. You know, I would really...I think I like to understand things, but I can't understand that. I can't understand how anybody would think that it is okay. And that is race-based. That comment was race-based. That is racism. Now, luckily, my grandson, he's only 2½, and he doesn't understand that. But if he was older, you know? And it did sort of feed...it did, [coughs], sorry, lead me to think, well, if he gets older, growing up in a predominantly white society and I pick him up from school, I don't look like the other grannies, you know? And like this is my whole life, you know? And it just made me feel so incredibly sad, you know? Like, I mean, I don’t...I mean, you know, children will have their challenges, and, you know, like...I think he won't see me as a coloured person until he sees me as a coloured person. You know, I mean, I can remember a really charming dialogue between two children in a playground, not that long ago, and it was a little girl, two little girls were playing, and one of the little girls pointed at me and said that, 'She's brown, she's brown'. And the other little girl, whose mother I knew, said, 'No she's not, she's my mummy's friend', which was really sweet. And you sort of think they don't notice it until they notice it. And that's something that we will sort of overcome when we get there. But that's...I think that's...that felt very personal to me. There's discrimination at work, I think. I'm a nurse, and I did my return to practice and worked in the Northern Ireland Health Service for a...for...you know, for a...for...well, for ten years now. And Covid...I think when you've grown up with sort of racism, it's part of your DNA and you accept it. But then sometimes things happen, like the incident with my grandson. With Covid, I was redeployed, along with lots of people. It was a very difficult time, it was a very, very scary time. But when we learned that there was a disproportionate people from ethnic minorities dying from Covid, that just wasn't taken into account when people...when they were doing risk assessments and redeploying nurses to work in high-risk areas, which I was. And on the one hand, I genuinely believed that I had enough transferable skills to go and work in the high-risk areas, even though I'm...I worked in surgery. So I was redeployed to go and work in intensive care with Covid patients. I felt that I had enough transferable skills that I could learn enough to be useful as long as I was under some sort of supervision. But actually, the fact that I was at risk was just never taken into account. And I did have a risk assessment, which didn't take into account the ethnic factor. And again, that was just a real wake-up call for me. I felt like it was yet another sort of situation where race just dominates the landscape of your life and your trajectory so much that you're kind of unaware of it. That's why I use the phrase like, it's in your DNA. And it has to be so blatant and so in your face for you to realize it. And then you feel so trapped that you can't do anything about it. You have to try and manage it within...in the way that you can. Now, you know, when I...and I did get a lot of support from my husband who said, ‘You have to alert your managers to this.’ And I did. And I did it with his help. And...but navigate...navigating my way around that time, which was really, really scary, was really difficult.

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